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[daviefresh1775]

QUOTE (Large Dopant white @ Nov 24 2003, 02:25 PM)

I find it extreamly displeasing that the most promenent groups in the scene (that people look up to, no less) skirt around sharing code (even under pressure of a licence) by simply saying, "It's all illegal, fuck it". You know, guys, this is why the scene stagnates and "freezes" for such long periods of time between the "major" shit. Yeah, I know, alot of stuff has been pioneered on the XBox by either Team EvoX or Xecuter (the latter more recently). However, if you look at, say, the DC scene, almost *every* major hack, developmental milestone, and whatnot was made very, very early, documented well, and sources released. Within less than a year, the homebrew devkit almost surpassed the commercial one, for Christ's sake. Why? Because everyone had the maturity to share their work. Now, to this scene. Sharing code is taboo here; it's considered perfectly mature to not share code and, approched on the subject, to call all reproachers "fucking faggots". While not sharing code is acceptable (at least, if it's not under licence), saying, in effect, "fuck you" every time someone asks is just a touch adolescent. I thank the lucky stars that guys like BenJeremy, Xport, and the XBMP/C team had such maturity (when Xport wasn't sharing the source, at least he didn't respond with an insult every time someone made a topic about it) to share the code. Hell, without derived sourcecode from XBMP, alot of coders would be banging their heads against a wall trying to implement features that were otherwise easily thrown in. Not to sound ungrateful, Ubergeek, but your team isn't a monolith. There's still plenty of time for another group to come along and throw you off the top of the heap. Remember how you threw EvoX off the top of that same heap? You had an edge (you updated your shit more). Another group may come along and have an edge of your own group (maybe they'll release source, maybe they'll actually assist other groups instead of prattle on about it, whatever). As I've said before, no group or individual is truely indespensible, except for maybe Andrew "Bunny" Huang (sorry if I spelled his name wrong). I still remember when your team used to start flamewars daily. If it wasn't for your skilled hacking (you want to prove you know the BIOS? Code one from scratch. That, or quit dogging on Cromwell), there would be no respect for you. This thread has made me lose a little more respect for your group. As I suggested in the past, you shouldn't be the voice of Xecuter if you're going to be so damn hostile towards mostly innocent questions.

//cosign that

[lantus]

SDL actually uses LGPL which relaxes some of the restrictions on source code a bit. i.e i think you are allowed to distirbute binaries without source..i could be wrong of course, im not interested in reading some 10 page terms and conditions spiel.

[oz_paulb]

QUOTE (lantus @ Nov 25 2003, 02:15 AM)

SDL actually uses LGPL which relaxes some of the restrictions on source code a bit. i.e i think you are allowed to distirbute binaries without source..i could be wrong of course, im not interested in reading some 10 page terms and conditions spiel.

I believe LGPL means that you must release source code for any changes you make to LGPL'd code - but you are not required to release source code to your entire application.  It's a much nicer license from the standpoint of a developer wanting to pull-in some free code - they can pull that code in "as is", and won't need to give up any rights to their own code.  If they actually make changes to the LGPL'd code that they pull-in, then that modified code must be released (as source) with the changes.

GPL is quite restrictive - especially for commercial applications.  As a commercial app developer, you don't want to be forced to release all of your source code, just because you've pulled-in some GPL'd code (this is what GPL requires, though).  This limits the use of GPL'd code in legitimate apps.

It's up to the person releasing the source code in the first place to decide whether they want it to be GPL'd or LGPL'd (or any other 'free' license) - you can't make that decision as a user of the code.

Of course, if people are ignoring MS's copyrights, I suppose they may ignore the difference between GPL/LGPL/other free licenses.  I'm not passing any judgement (or pointing fingers) here - just stating the obvious.

- Paulb

[alg20]

 take a break and think

cotton white panties and u will b ok!

[heinrich]

QUOTE

best part.. its all FREE for us...... and they say nothing is FREE??? i haven't payed for any of my bioses, APPS or anything.

Thats right, it is all FREE, so why keep it to yourself?
And that isnt just for xecuter.  Evox was on the ball early on, their dash had features that no other had until just in the last few weeks.  Things like flashing chips, and hard drive formatting.  Wouldnt it have been nice if they shared this with all 18 months ago?

QUOTE

no honor amongst thieves?

Ever hear of DOMINION-X?  How much respect did they get for ripping off someone else's work?  No, its not nearly the same as xecuter and the lba48 code, where they gave due credit, but it shows that there is a line somewhere in there.

[the joker]

QUOTE (heinrich @ Nov 24 2003, 12:25 PM)

the joker, i see where you are coming from, and the way I took the question, it was just asked that changes/conversations of the code be made public and/or shared with the original developer.  IE: if ava used SMB code from xbmp, and made any improvement (optimizations), they would share their findings with the community, which makes it better all around.

now this is a vision I share.   if it can be made better - it should be shared for the common interest.

QUOTE

you are right what devs could do if they could use the resources like they wanted but think where the resources came from. all the things you mentioned like SMB,SDL etc. is licensed under the GPL. if the people who have written this code wouldn't had given it out you would know nothing about it. if someone writes good software the source should be shared for others to learn. if everyone would keep their sources closed you wouldn't be as good a programmer as you're now.

and this one I find a bit insulting
because DUDE ! you have no idea how many hours I spendt without a single example to go from in 99% of all my cases. And I dare you - open a few RFC's.  
I lack the skill of reading / learning of other peoples code, so open sourced code has never improved me a bit.

but still, that's a vision that varies for many people.  


And Lantus, I would never dare to diss you, but this is in the sdl's readmefile :

QUOTE

- Remember if you decide to port an existing SDL app/game/demo/emulator   you must provide source code as per GPL.

  And as said, since I respect developers wishes ( you more than many others) - I took it straight out to not piss anyone off.
LGPL is veery different. That's the ideal way of doing things imho. That is giving to demand progress, not giving to put people in a position where they have to choose where to go.




And as mr.B said, people that programs using the xdk is per definition a "criminal".  If you steal cars, would you also dare to drive over the speedlimit ?  

[the joker]

[Large Dopant white]

QUOTE (Nailed @ Nov 27 2003, 02:58 AM)

Dopant, a bit grittier that I might have written, but I think you hit the issues facing the XBox scene right on the nose. We just have to come to the realization that certain individuals and groups are looking to get props from the masses not their fellow computer-programming peers... can't take all the thunder if you have to share.

It may be gritty, but so's the situation. I mean, come on. We're the only scene to not have a decent open source devkit after a year, most of the big development groups act like children in a mudfight, and we all sit around and take it, with the barely-formed excuse, "modchips are illegal, so the rest of the scene should be. Problem solved!". Moreover, it seems that the same people and groups that develop and release the shit seem to want to keep it that way for some sort of prestige, which is completely retarded. If this scene was "legal", source was shared, and we could download our shit from a legitimate site rather than a single FTP server, we'd be lightyears beyond what it's at now.
But, now, I'm getting carried away. I guess I should just wrap it up and say that the scene, as a whole, needs to grow the fuck up. The convienience of using the leaked XDK is starting to be like an untreated wound on a soldier's leg, and the groups and individuals (the movers and the shakers, if you will) acting so damn possessive of developments they like to hang over our heads are really just going to get knocked out of the loop, kinda like what happened to EvoX. It's only a matter of time; how much time is the undetermined factor.

[Large Dopant white]

QUOTE (lantus @ Nov 27 2003, 03:23 AM)

Large Dopant white: a couple of points -XPort never "wasnt sharing the source". In fact i asked him for his DGen source a long time ago and was more than willing to give it to me. The fact remains he was reamed by GPL Zealots coming to the Emulation forum demanding he release all his source or there would be "repercussions". He was asked in private by one of the pcsx authors to release the source at request and he did so . So you see, simple courtesy is all that is required. -Ubergeek and Xecutor aint the only kids on the block. Theres some really good bios stuff in the pipeline from other groups. You've already seen the 'Complex' anim that went around a few months ago. You'll just have to wait and see what eventuates out of it.

On the point of Xport: I didn't mean to dog on him when I made that statement. I also didn't  know he shared his source "between authors", as it were. In any case, I was pointing out that at least he wasn't entirely rude when he wasn't sharing his sources publicly and someone posted a public message about it.
I didn't mean to imply that Team Xecuter are the only kids on the block, but they're certainly the most well-known and frequent releasers. While Complex hasn't done alot, they've hit some milestones, and I was actually thinking that they're a good possibility for the next group to be the king of the hill.
One more point: the quote you had implies that I misspelled the word "wasn't". I'd like to politely point out that I certainly did not. Not a big deal, but I'm sort of a stickler on the whole english thing.

[heinrich]

as for the XPORT emus and GPL code, the way I remember it was.... XPORT had been given unreleased code from the authors of the psx emu, which makes the issue kinda iffy.
As for the Xbox Scene, what Large Dopant white said is mostly in line with what I feel.  The lack of a legal XDK is unfortunate, but we all know, 'it will never be better then the original', and the MS one is more or less available to anyone who has enough brains to use it.
As for xecuter... they are not just a team that releases software, they sell chips; they have a business to run.  Does their bios help them in shelling chips?  Perhaps.  Is the reason they dont want to share code/findings because they are afraid of loosing that 'edge' in the modchip market?  Again, this could be the case, and I dont feel its my place to point fingers.

Of course, xecuter is not the only one at 'fault'.  Evox was the big name in bios's and their dash was used 95% of people in the scene for a good year.  Evox however, has nothing to lose if they were to share their code.  So why dont they?  The way I see it, they have pride in their work, and know that if they do release, there is a GOOD chance that someone else will build off their sources and release that work, thus, evox loosing their 'props' in the scene.

now, Complex, there have been some rumblings that they have something in the works, but based on the fact that I havent seen them release any source for any of their other work, I'm not expecting anything different in any future releases.  It would be nice to see a new group releasing stuff.

[Large Dopant white]

QUOTE (heinrich @ Nov 27 2003, 04:14 AM)

The lack of a legal XDK is unfortunate, but we all know, 'it will never be better then the original', and the MS one is more or less available to anyone who has enough brains to use it.

I don't know if you were meaning to be sarcastic, but I want to adress that false mindset while I still remember to.
A homebrew devkit *can* surpass the commercial one, in some aspects. For example, I believe the devkit for the DC (in case you wonder, I use the DC as a prime example simply because it's been around the longest and had a huge homebrew scene) has a better chance of reading and writing to the VMUs without corruption, and I know for a fact that it's quicker than the WinCE devkit (there were two, Katana and WinCE... WinCE is slow, anyway, but my point stands). It's all about the amount of effort exerted and the amount of time spent.

[Rodent]

at least i suggest to any coder,

if you code something, and you really would like to give out your sources seriously,
then GPL it.

If you do not want it to be used from Team Xecutor, just state clearly in your release, that it must not be used from team xecutor.

team xecutor is all about the money, and so are the releases of bioses...just for keeping in mind, Xecutor is not dead...

xecutor DOES something for the scene...

yea kind of...but at the end in sum it is for their own purposes,
thats it...money

ubergeek, i dont know you personally, but one thing:
your X3 with only ONE additional feature will definetly be crap...even by now it is not released...

there will come something...
something you can steal ideas for your X4 hardware...

keep that in mind...
prices for x2 are too high...and i have seen the x3 design...where will this put the prices at?

you will know, when the time comes

rod

[Ubergeek]

QUOTE (lantus @ Nov 27 2003, 03:23 AM)

-Ubergeek and Xecutor aint the only kids on the block. Theres some really good bios stuff in the pipeline from other groups. You've already seen the 'Complex' anim that went around a few months ago. You'll just have to wait and see what eventuates out of it.

Hi Lantus - this was a beta kernel from ms - we have it too of course  - it wasn't made by any group it was made by MS themselves. The startup anim cant be ripped this is why its not been seen on any release. Sure maybe if we get some time in the future we will do it. But why spend 3 months on something we'd give for free only to be met with bashing posts for not showing how we did it.

General Comments

it pisses me off that anyone would bitch that we dont share our kernel code. We share everything else we have designed in the past and also help other teams develop when they need a little help but we still get this crap. You all get the bios's we and others make for you and you all get evox / ava dashboards and other apps to use also by the other guys who choose not to release their "babys" to the public. For 95% of other apps you get the sources - be content with this and be happy you are not in the PS2 scene where the figures are a little more reveresed.

for anyone to moan about the xbox scene and its openness is so crap

xbox scene is THE most open scene with regards to development that ive ever seen or ever been involved in

because some groups keep a little code to themselves as its their "baby" for props or whatever - well get out from under your rock as this is how any scene in general has operated for almost 2 decades now.

Rodent: Blow me

Your comments are dumb and stupid. You have zero clue about how we work and the regarding the prices we dont set those on anything. If you knew how much is made by us youd laugh your ass off. Its the retailers that make the money. Dont believe us ? - ask Xodus they know how it is also.

I laugh my ass off at your comments on money. You are selling a shitty cheapmod device for 27 Euro and some double SST with a free released 508 pic code for 42 euros LOL - how you have the balls to say X2 is too expensive - man thats funny

I suggest you look at yourself before commenting on what other people do.

my 2 cents for the day - happy thanksgiving to everyone else !!!

[Rodent]

yes, and if you do not understand sarcasm,
then better do not read my signature

can you see that? its a smiley after my sig,
so really do not také that too serious.

this signature is the result of a flamewar wit our friend nasis X

rod

[Ubergeek]